tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post290036624840191929..comments2023-07-05T10:19:29.688-04:00Comments on Joelle Casteel- author of bdsm erotica: #SpankingRound Don't you DARE tell me I'm just listening to patriarchal conditioning! Spanking & FeminismJoelle Casteelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-10887962091790986432013-11-12T12:44:20.354-05:002013-11-12T12:44:20.354-05:00thanks so much for the comment, Maren. No, your co...thanks so much for the comment, Maren. No, your comment isn't something to be offended by, I think. Kids can be so cruel, can't they? I received plenty of bullying for various things- and my mother wonders why I am a proud home educator and refuse to send my teen to public school. Although there was the time she marched into school, angry about a boy I'd mentioned who felt my butt every chance he got... she threatened lawsuit and that boy never bugged me again. Must have been some talking to.<br /><br />Yeah, we can feel "over it" in many ways. I've talked at "Take Back the Night" things, talk about consent in many places (including teaching UU teens about sexuality). However, when my teen turned 13, that was a hard one for me. I mean, I looked at him... how could anyone say he deserved to be raped? And now he's learned the opening notes of the Metallica song "Nothing else matters" as well as I have- he quickly changes the station because the one time he saw me start hyperventilating, which the song has the power to make me still do 20 years later, while I was driving us somewhere, scared him.Joelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-84863574997039490692013-11-12T10:37:33.313-05:002013-11-12T10:37:33.313-05:00Joelle, I have no business saying this and I hope ...Joelle, I have no business saying this and I hope you won't be offended, but I was so damn proud of you for having the courage to post this. Particularly the heartache you went through in the beginning. I was raped a month before I turned 13 and while my mother did believe me, the police did not. And yet, in the course of their investigation, they talked to people who let it slip at school. It was my peers who called me a slut. I was pushed into the boys bathroom, felt up, assaulted. Instead of experimenting with drugs, I attempted suicide and ended up in a mental health ward with a psychiatrist who refused to let me leave until I admitted my father was my rapist.<br /><br />As I read your post, it took me back a little into a place I thought I'd buried and forgotten. Funny, how things like this are never fully buried or forgotten. Funny, how it shapes us, hardens and even strengthens us. Your post was so very articulate and raw in all the right ways. Bravo. I truly, honestly admire you for what you've said here, for what you've been through, and for not letting it--in all its small-minded ugliness throughout the years--weather and wear you down.Maren Smithhttp://badgirlscorner.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-76789799671039427342013-11-12T06:02:01.780-05:002013-11-12T06:02:01.780-05:00ah thanks, Penelope. Yeah, identity politics defin...ah thanks, Penelope. Yeah, identity politics definitely can get sticky. And I agree, on the misanthropy angle. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten into it with radfems over my Master- not even getting into the BDSM thing, just the fact that He's a straight cisgender white man. Because there has been times in His life that He needed a hand up and didn't get it because of "who" He is. I don't think reverse any ism is good- I think "we" need to be careful that we don't end up with misanthropy under the guise of "leveling the playing field." And really, I carry too many marginalized identities within me for any identity politics to be entirely supportive. I just finished reading a book- I wish I remembered the title, something like "Border Sexualities..." It's by the Austrialian writer Maria Pallotta-Chiarolli, who wrote the YA/New Adult "Love You Two" about polyamory and a variety of other alternative sexualities. It was fascinating how she showed the variety of strategies for dealing with the differences.Joelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-12728562133668143162013-11-11T16:35:50.434-05:002013-11-11T16:35:50.434-05:00I'm with Natasha. I want to defend you :)
I c...I'm with Natasha. I want to defend you :)<br /><br />I call myself a feminist, because I believe certain things, but I understand at the same time that it is just a label. And I have little time for the type of 'radical' feminist who uses feminism as a cover for misanthropy. Identity politics are a minefield, and those who lose sight of the individual in their ideological zeal for some abstract ideal should be treated warily. We are all people, not categories.Penelopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00565114729355841150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-67871161523951676672013-11-08T20:45:37.739-05:002013-11-08T20:45:37.739-05:00thanks, Casey. Interestingly, over on facebook I g...thanks, Casey. Interestingly, over on facebook I got into a conversation with a UU friend about feminism and radicalism because I'd shared a "10 basic feminist beliefs" link after reading it and finding I only had problems with 2 points on the list- radicalism and "housework is political" and the housework one is only in terms of radfems (really mostly just them) who get angry when a woman does all the house work. I chose this. and sure sometimes I need help and my Master tends to help quicker the boy teen- who is so trying to have angst and failing with liberal parents who home educate him lolJoelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-42689873487281269162013-11-08T19:55:08.035-05:002013-11-08T19:55:08.035-05:00Joelle, I really enjoyed reading your blog post an...Joelle, I really enjoyed reading your blog post and all of the comments. Personally I think 'radical' anything is too much. If some feminists are so busy trying to push their beliefs on other people that they are pushing other women down, what's the point. I agree that as women we need to stick together and be each other's biggest supporters.<br /><br />I sort of stay away from reading any kind of philosophy. I am what I am, and if someone else doesn't like it, they don't have to, that is their choice and I am not taking it away from them.<br /><br />I want to give you a "You go girl!" for writing this post. :) Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09958878959625455361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-23408567870469226072013-11-08T18:49:54.351-05:002013-11-08T18:49:54.351-05:00It's like I said in a status message today, po...It's like I said in a status message today, pondering things like "Why should I wait for someone to tell me I am/can be a feminist?" etc I'm pretty sure most of basic feminist theory is something I agree withJoelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-62266029648955845002013-11-08T18:45:12.191-05:002013-11-08T18:45:12.191-05:00thanks, Renee. You know, I still feel really inves...thanks, Renee. You know, I still feel really invested, that I "should be a feminist," that I "should take part in feminist discourse," but it's a struggle. That sex positive group was going well for me until the radfem attack. I just don't know I have it in me to try it again and it also feels like a religious/spiritual sticking point, as a UUJoelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-83049445318642181362013-11-08T18:26:44.791-05:002013-11-08T18:26:44.791-05:00Yeah, the slut-shaming is only being taken on by c...Yeah, the slut-shaming is only being taken on by current feminists. I think feminists back in your mom's day had no clue about sex-positivism in the slightest. I"m sorry all your experiences have been so negative with feminism. Renee Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01414212384941364401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-79814953595296736062013-11-08T17:32:07.157-05:002013-11-08T17:32:07.157-05:00lol one can hope the cycle will break but idk... I...lol one can hope the cycle will break but idk... I'm thinking back to a reproductive rights social justice conference I went to at a UU church recently. Yeah, I'm a proud UU, but sometimes I think the radfems are all too welcome among the spiritual circles I move. But this one college student who spoke on the "young persons" panel- I swear her expression was such a pissy, angry thing- and when she spoke, it was like hearing those radfems back in college. I do like your metaphor though of the vicious cycle of radfems breakingJoelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-1163462960283041732013-11-08T16:53:00.450-05:002013-11-08T16:53:00.450-05:00I think the more women choose to make choices that...I think the more women choose to make choices that aren't radical, that might be more traditional (women have been spanked for about forever), or that fit outside the politically correct box, the more shrill the "radfems" get. It's like they have to screw up their red faces and fist their hands and stomp up and down to get your attention because they can't get positive feedback any other way. And those who give them positive feedback (other radfems) reinforce their vehemence. It's a vicious cycle, but I think someday it'll break, maybe not like a tree limb that falls, but more like a diamond being cut into something more beautiful than the rock it started as.Patricia Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05042411219884835267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-79616744252162087422013-11-08T16:10:00.941-05:002013-11-08T16:10:00.941-05:00It makes me shudder to see Nazi used in that way, ...It makes me shudder to see Nazi used in that way, Ruth, but yeah, I totally see it too about the way some radical feminists approach it. Very sad.Joelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-19363846743805208892013-11-08T14:44:03.419-05:002013-11-08T14:44:03.419-05:00Reading your post, I found myself remembering how ...Reading your post, I found myself remembering how a friend of mine referred to radical feminists when we were in college. We were in a class with several women who were very much stereotypical espousers of that philosophy. He called them the femi-nazis. It was tongue-in-cheek, but it's actually pretty accurate. They embraced radical feminism with the single-minded zeal of a Nazi sympathizer, and in my observation, alienated far more people than they converted.Ruth Stauntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14151152922385690515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-1641714089854302542013-11-08T14:27:53.989-05:002013-11-08T14:27:53.989-05:00:D at your second comment, Thianna... either was i...:D at your second comment, Thianna... either was is good. It sad though how much women are nasty to other women. It's one thread of conversation my Master and I often have about women's fashion- He doesn't understand a lot of it. Like high heels, worrying about clothes etc. I forget what we were looking at, but once my Master asked "Do any women really think men like looking at that?" And without missing a beat, I looked at Him kind of confused and answered, "Very few women actually get dressed with men in mind; it's other women we want to impress." in many ways it's quite refreshing for me because submitting to how He wants me to dress has lifted me out of that fashion dilemma.<br /><br />that's kinda sad, your mom's struggle when she found out you're submissive, not dominant. In a way, not saying that this is where your mom is coming from of course, it seems to me that part of "dommes are okay" is this man-hating, pendelum-swing (goodness, I wish I remembered at this point of the day which of the other round table posters talked about that metaphor- maybe Corinne?) part of the feminism is too often acted out that pushes me away from it. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten into it with feminists since begging my Master's collar. He's a straight cisgender white guy- and when many years ago He needed help to avoid being homeless, there was no help. And today, the fact that He's a straight white guy is part of what helped Him get the job that allows my son and I to live the best lives for us. so when people start to talk about privilege while taking it out of context of the myriad parts of a person, it makes me angryJoelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-23503690109045401282013-11-08T13:39:37.773-05:002013-11-08T13:39:37.773-05:00That was supposed to be "We need to lift one ...That was supposed to be "We need to lift one another up" but I kind of like "We need to life one another up"Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02995447825109758826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-51116371892968006402013-11-08T13:38:22.023-05:002013-11-08T13:38:22.023-05:00" I don't think "they" would be..." I don't think "they" would be as angry at what "they" consider to be my bad choice."<br /><br />I agree. I told my mother about being a member of the BDSM community several years ago and while she doesn't understand, she had supported. Until the day she was over t my place when I received a slapper in the mail. She held it and smacked it against her leg and said "So you hit people with this?"<br /><br />I said, "No, I ask certain people to hit me with it."<br /><br />Her eyes went wide. It was easier for her to accept if I was the one 'in charge'.<br /><br />And as far as getting the most grief from women. That is everywhere. In high school, it is the "it' girls who do the most damage when they laugh at, ridicule, and put down other women. In the stores where images of normal women are displayed, it is women, not men, who get up in arms about the store encouraging obesity. <br /><br />This is a problem that needs to change. We need to life one another up. <br /><br />Isn't it wonderful to have a community of people who try to understand?Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02995447825109758826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-19249966743020901822013-11-08T13:28:38.532-05:002013-11-08T13:28:38.532-05:00thanks, Corinne- I was just thinking that after re...thanks, Corinne- I was just thinking that after reading and commenting on your post- how we're all picking up pieces. Like Thianna's 4 parts of a woman- what a beautiful theory. The wave anthology is interesting- in that book I mentioned in replying to Sadey, I have rough memory talking about how the waves are almost like a mother/daughter relationship and how that complexity has played out- for me, with my mother using "feminism" as an excuse for her emotional abuse, it makes sense that I would struggle with the label. Even "third wave" is still an issue for me- as a woman with a hidden disability (bipolar), as a queer woman, as a white woman with many friends who are women-of-color, I see where the 3rd wave is still too much about white middle class women- hardly as inclusive as it should be.<br /><br />I'm not sure if it's so much human nature as the way we're too often taught by our cultures to act.Joelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-7854097065230956642013-11-08T13:09:40.974-05:002013-11-08T13:09:40.974-05:00You addressed everything I wanted to, but didn'...You addressed everything I wanted to, but didn't in my post. This is such a multi-layered deep issue with infinite ways that we are all affected by feminism. There are so many ways the fall out affects us & views of what feminism is. Just like anything else there is no one definition anymore. I really like how you described the first wave, second wave, and now the third wave. I really think that third wave is upon us. Sex positive is another empowering move. I just wonder if it's human nature to judge anything that isn't what we personally believe in. It doesn't seem to matter what it is. Everything that you can have an opinion about...there seems to be judgement on the flip side. I think we are in an era of choice and celebrating that choice. The more we own our choices and live them out loud the more we make room for others to do the same. We just have to keep on keeping on. Eventually there will be balance...even if it isn't in our lifetime.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02704111554102663421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-14787717552736152722013-11-08T12:30:10.144-05:002013-11-08T12:30:10.144-05:00thanks for the comment, Elise. I agree, better not...thanks for the comment, Elise. I agree, better not to rule anything out completely. Although I do have my very few hard limits- no kids, no animals, no dead things- but then I find as a writer, how I approach things. Not exactly applicable to the conversation of spanking, but there's different fetishes that interest me but are hard limits for my Master so I put them into fiction and enjoy them that way. Interesting- when it comes to being more lifestyle, I find that's one of those places that I run afoul of feminists who live too much in theory- like Anastasia commented on my phrase "traditional seeming"- because yes, I'm at home. I do the majority of the cleaning... I even have a post coming up based on the idea "when BDSM is more about running the house" lolJoelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-46979335903223896072013-11-08T12:25:23.517-05:002013-11-08T12:25:23.517-05:00and thank you for the comment, Celeste. Yes, I kno...and thank you for the comment, Celeste. Yes, I know the wimmin you speaking of- they were still very much "there" when I got to a private co-ed liberal arts college in the late 90s sadly. I was never as radical, or radical in the right way. The way of the judging, the lack of the support from said women- you know, it reminded me of the cattiness of girls in high schoolJoelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-22146212519041899542013-11-08T12:21:24.271-05:002013-11-08T12:21:24.271-05:00Fascinating post, Joelle! I definitely see some of...Fascinating post, Joelle! I definitely see some of my own thinkings and feelings on feminism in your writing here. I've contemplated lifestyle BDSM myself, but as of this point it's not a reality for me. Still, I try to NEVER rule anything out in kink ("never say never") or BDSM or whatever you want to call this thing that we do.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07792562455630061886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-77614015745042662062013-11-08T12:12:35.886-05:002013-11-08T12:12:35.886-05:00Joelle--thank you for sharing so much about yourse...Joelle--thank you for sharing so much about yourself. When I was in college in the 80's (a women's college btw) I was surprised by how unsupportive the wimmin (how they spelled it) who felt themselves the real radicals were of those who were not as radical as they were. I could never understand women attacking other women over their choices or beliefs. Just seemed contradictory to me. Celeste Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17636997442600551241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-76033408688197852222013-11-08T11:23:55.882-05:002013-11-08T11:23:55.882-05:00thanks for the comment, Sadey.
You know, I don...thanks for the comment, Sadey.<br /><br />You know, I don't think I'd mentioned in this post, but I'd gone looking for books about "3rd wave feminism" as I've seen this term and that sex positive feminism is welcome within this re-imagined movement. However the book- I think it was something like "To Catch a Wave," a collection of feminist essays- and I found feminism that accepted "women like me" and the very same feminism that has labeled me as wrong. I really liked what Anastasia had to say about policing; beyond even just feminism, I think that policing is something that happens too often. I'm too young to have directly experienced them, but I've read of things like the beginning of lesbian separatism and the culture wars (trying to move away from the femme/butch dichotomy, whether the person wanted to or not). why would my choice to wear lipstick or not make me more or less of a feminist? actually I don't wear lipstick anymore- my Master doesn't care for make up, much of it isn't environmentally friendly, and I'm too busy to care lolJoelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-40097744959810110252013-11-08T10:54:01.809-05:002013-11-08T10:54:01.809-05:00I'm sorry you had such a rough time!
Feminis...I'm sorry you had such a rough time! <br /><br />Feminism is certainly a polluted term. Just as you mention that putting a label on your relationship with your Master is unnecessary--DD, BDSM, whatever--putting a definition to feminism is impossible. Every feminist has to decide for themselves what their feminism is. :) Great post, thanks!Sadey Quinnhttp://sadeyquinn.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3260086536667952678.post-51743088375281322432013-11-08T09:45:43.654-05:002013-11-08T09:45:43.654-05:00aww thanks, Natasha. I have quite the mouth on me-...aww thanks, Natasha. I have quite the mouth on me- just ask my Master lmao. But yeah, I'm always ready with a quick education, vent, or lecture, depending on the case. I'm almost tempted to try to find that whole vent at my guy friend that I mentioned... it looked huge in the fb pm. It's sadly true, vents like that one, that I took my title from have very real causes in what I've read, what I've had said at me by self-identifying feminists. That group I left? I have a variety of friends who still talk about the notion that I should return, that the admins are trying to keep the radfems under control.Joelle Casteelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916035794147846651noreply@blogger.com